I have been cut out from the 'discussion' that I was having with Joyful Catholic. Bless her heart, her method is to throw out '10' different objections to Protestantism as an answer to a simple charge or two. Throw out enough objections with no supporting proofs to bury your opponent and consider him/her refuted.
Here is her last response to me, and my unposted answer- I will follow with more comments to flesh out my answers, and address the rest of the charges as well, following the original response.
JOYFUL CATHOLIC-
It is dishonest of you to say Catholics 'work for their salvation.' We don't. Never have. The point is, Garrett, whether 33,000 or 100 or 3 we are not ONE as Jesus prayed for to the Father in John 17.
I confess :) I did not read the article. I'm not obsessed by the number of denoms so why waste precious time? Also, the Catholic Church has NO denominations. It is NOT a denomination of man, but is "pre-denominational" being founded by Christ. It is the Mother of All Mega Churches, as my husband likes to say, it is so large that it needs parishes.
The Catholic Church is not infallible,I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Only the Pope is, WHEN and ONLY when he speaks on matters of faith/morals) The Church was made up of sinners from the "get go" Judas, Peter's denial, all "dissing" Jesus at his crucifixion. When the Pope speaks on those matters, she IS infallible,for she is guided by the same Holy Spirit Jesus sent to watch over her and protect her from the "Gates of Hell."
Re: penance. Sorry I wasn't clear again. It may or may not be given at confession. The forgiveness is already given us by the priest - in persona Christi. We were really all saved when Jesus died on the cross, but yet we are told to "confess our sins, one to another" Penance is given to help us 'settle in our souls' and to experience that true peace of Christ even more fully by a collaborative effort. Mom's are completely capable of making the cake (of forgiveness)w/ no help, but they let their children contribute to feel the JOY of being a participant in the process. Does that help?
Of course we can't 'earn our salvation' by our good works, but we are not saved by "faith alone" either. James 2:24
We are told to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" That's severe. It also makes no sense if we're never in danger of losing our salvation after being "saved."
SO where do we go to 'settle our dispute(s)? Your church? Or the One Jesus built? Which church of the "far less" than 33,000 will settle this debate? Only ONE Garrett. The Bible interpreted by you or me alone is why the bible cannot be and is NOT the final authority.
I suggest you get the Catechism of the CC and ask God, in faith, with an open, docile heart to show you the Truth of the CC.
Also, Mike Aquilina has more information on the early Fathers of the Church.
I won't belabor this any longer. You are the one who's not desiring a conversation, but only tossing out verses to "prove me wrong." Not gonna do that. The Church is who and what she claims, or she is not. "Where Peter is, there is the Church." The better, safest place to be for us all, aspiring to sainthood, is IN HIS CHURCH. To be apart from it is a much 'harder' and more perilous road...so Godspeed.
TRUEly yours - Joyful CATHOLIC.
GARRET GRAVES (UNPOSTED AS OF THIS POSTING)
Hi Joyful-
Just a final word from me then, and I will drop it.
I understand the Catholic faith does not teach that you are saved by works- I wasn't saying that. I'm pointing out that you 'do' penance to get grace. Whether you admit it or not, you are getting grace by deeds you do, and I don't do those deeds, so I don't get that grace. But when you do something for something, that is work.
You cannot lose your salvation, Christ promissed that John 6:38-40.
Working out salvation in fear and trembling is not a matter of retention of salvation at all- Christ is not a liar, nor will he be thwarted by the will of man.
On shaky historical ground rests the claim of Peter being the Bishop of Rome. The book of Acts shows that he was sent, not a sender, but sent, on missions, nor did he preside as the leader of the Apostles on the matter of circumcision Acts 15. The first monarchical Bishop to emerge at Rome was some 100-125 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
God bless,
Garret
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There was a LOT more to be said, but I kept it brief. Here I will address the other points.
Joyful Catholic (JOYC)-The point is, Garrett, whether 33,000 or 100 or 3 we are not ONE as Jesus prayed for to the Father in John 17.
We are one, at least those who are His, regenerate, born from above, who have 'ears to hear,' who are the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:19-20).
JOYC- I confess :) I did not read the article. I'm not obsessed by the number of denoms so why waste precious time?
Because it is spreading a lie. If you are a Christian, you should not lie- the article reveals the truth on the matter, and the truth should interest you. You are the one who threw out in your first response to me the number 36,000. If you have no interest, please don't use it as an objection.
JOYC- The Catholic Church is not infallible,I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Only the Pope is, WHEN and ONLY when he speaks on matters of faith/morals)
Then the Pope is not infallible, because many times when speaking on matters of faith, they disagree with each other- see the papal syllabus of errors. See also the debate response here, where James White demonstrates that when he was told by Tim Staples that he doesn't understand purgatory (it doesn't fit current Pope Benedict statements on the matter), James White was using the definition used by Pope(s) plural, and quotes those Popes on that particular matter of faith in which they are allegedly infallible!
JOYC-The forgiveness is already given us by the priest - in persona Christi
There is a lot to be said about the legitimacy of the sacerdotal priesthood, but I am not going to touch that aspect for now, other than to say in the new covenant, it is unbiblical. QUESTION- If you don't absolve your sins in this particular way, are you forgiven your sins? If the answer is 'you are not forgiven your sins then' that is a horrible, unbiblical lie, and is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ!
JOYC- Of course we can't 'earn our salvation' by our good works, but we are not saved by "faith alone" either. James 2:24
Yes, we are saved by faith alone through grace alone- it is a faith that saves, and that has a particular quality, it comes with works (Ephesians 2).
James would agree that to not have works, you have a dead faith, and that faith does not save. Briefly, James 2:14-26 forms one single argument. From verse 14, by the time you get to verse 17, it is already clear that it is not faith versus works that is in question here, but rather a dead faith versus a living faith. The Reformed position has a lot to say by way of careful exegesis of the text itself, and letting James speak for James by showing what he is actually saying in his own argument.
JOYC- The Bible interpreted by you or me alone is why the bible cannot be and is NOT the final authority.
It is the final authority if you hold to sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is not applied alone, there is the church structure in the Scriptures, an episcopate over us and guiding us, who are subservient to the only infallible and inerrant word of God, the Scriptures. I am not here going to continue on a 'sola' rant, I do intend to have posts on the subject in the future. In the meantime here is this interesting article to consider.
JOYC-I suggest you get the Catechism of the CC and ask God, in faith, with an open, docile heart to show you the Truth of the CC.
That is what the Mormons told me when they handed me the Book of Mormon! That is not going to work I'm afraid. I can compare the teaching of the Bible to you CC and that is all I need to see the truth of the matter. I will stick with the Apostles, not the RCC.
May God richly bless all of us with His truth, and remember "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9
Garret
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4 comments:
So let me get this straight. I can't lose my salvation once I'm saved? Cool beans! Can I drink like a fish to celebrate and maybe sleep around on my husband, you know, just because I can't ever lose my salvation? Cool beans again! Maybe adulterers and drunkards can also 'enter the Kingdom'...but wait that would make Jesus a liar. He said they will not enter the Kingdom. You are sorely misguided, Garret. Well intentioned perhaps, but terribly misinformed about the Catholic Church and you don't care one whit about seeking the Truth about what Catholics really believe, do you? A "church structure" in the Scriptures...you mean the Scriptures the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH gave you? How curious and ironic that is! The Bible didn't fall from the sky. It says in those scriptures that the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth. It was already 'in action' before the bible came along. I confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart Jesus is Lord back in Feb. 1974 so what's your problem? Now I happen to be a Catholic, returned to the RCC with my husband in Dec. 05. I've not lost my salvation have I Garret? I'm still saved no matter what, right? So why try to "save me" at all? Can you 'read my heart and soul' and say that I 'wasn't really saved" back then? Come on now, that's the logical conclusion to your illogical theology. I've never 'lost' nor can I lose ever lose my salvation, so what's your point in telling me to "confess with my mouth and believe in my heart again? How often does one have to keep doing that before 'it takes?' Maybe it didn't "take" for you? Have you ever thought of that? Have you ever had to "rededicate" your life to Jesus after "back sliding?" Or don't you ever sin anymore? That would mean you're a liar and the Truth is not in you, according to St. John. So I have not lost my salvation. Unless according to interpretation of Garret, one winds up a Catholic, huh? Once Saved Always Saved is a lie...from the pit of hell, and quite presumptuous. It cheapens Grace that cost our Savior his life and every drop of blood. I hope you and your readers who believe that lie, will one day truly find the Truth and the Fullness of it in the Church Jesus built. If not, that's what purgatory is for, (as my husband likes to 'tease')Purgatory's where Protestants become Catholics. :) all in good fun there, buddy. *laugh* Guess we'll find out one day, eh? God bless you, Garret.
Oh, and one more thing, what about the youth minister in our former "inter-denom" mega church who molested a teen age girl? His salvation is as secure as yours is, isnt' it? If he repents. But then why should he? I mean what for? He was "saved" Garret. Let's hear it for the good old "once saved always saved" doctrine. I mean, he prayed the "Sinners' Prayer," confessed w/ his mouth "Jesus as Lord" and asked Jesus into his heart, just like you told me to do. And with that, "Wham Bam!" -Poof- he was *saved!* Signed. Sealed. Delivered. From. Hell. He said all the right words, read his bible, quoted scriptures and the whole nine yards. According to you, I guess he doesn't have to 'repent,' I mean, yeah, he should be apologetic to her parents and her, I mean, it was kind of a 'rude' thing to do, but yet he doesn't have to worry about losing his eternal life, not really, because he can't ever lose his salvation, no matter what he does...so why the heck worry about becoming good or as we're told in the bible, "Be ye perfect" (made holy)..it's Jesus that commands that of us. It doesn't appear to be a suggestion. However, He doesn't ask anything of us He won't help us to do and attain, but we DO HAVE OUR PART to respond and comply WITH grace, cooperating with the Holy Spirit to "remain" in the state of grace, the grace of Christ, because as I read it, even the "elect" will "fall away." Hmm. Sounds like there's some conditions and warnings for 'even the elect.' Would the "elect" mean you and your friends? You're the "saved ones" correct? Even if you don't think so, your theology is stunning, it's truly astounding and incredibly erroneous and a 'false doctrine' of mere man. It holds not one drop of water. Faith AND Reason. They go together. OSAS is bull crap. It is not reasonable, scriptural or true. How sad. How tragic it is to cheapen God's grace with such a simplistic and totally false, and arrogant paradigm. I will continue my prayers for you at Mass as often as you come to mind. I'll take your prayers too, we need all we can get. However, don't waste the ones for me concerning my salvation, because: I ain't "never lost it" and I ain't "never gonna!" Even evangelicals who become Catholics can be saved, since we always were,and we can return to the RCC and remain IN the CHURCH until Judgment Day and never lose our salvation, because it's impossible to lose it! So it is pointless to pray for me to be saved. OSAS! What a concept! Not biblical but still, what a concept! How neato! Hot Dog! AND Cool beans! :)
Hi Joyful Catholic
Part one to response one-
Don't you understand that the Bible does NOT teach Antinominism? Many people are out there claiming to be saved who are not. It is not the human proclamation "I am saved" that makes it so. And Antinomianism is aptly addressed by Paul in Romans chapter 6, for instance.
you mean the Scriptures the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH gave you?
Which books in the Bible were written by the Roman Catholic Church?
Can you 'read my heart and soul' and say that I 'wasn't really saved" back then? Come on now, that's the logical conclusion to your illogical theology.
You are dong a lot of assuming here about my abilities, and what I think they are. A person who hates their sin, grieves over it, seeks the Living, Triune God of the Bible's face looking for mercy, and takes His word seriously, showing the fruit of the Spirit in their lives- is someone who I would say that 'I believe must be saved'- but I don't know that for sure, I cannot see the heart. I pray that all who read this examine themselves in this way, and read the word everyday.
Maybe it didn't "take" for you? Have you ever thought of that? Have you ever had to "rededicate" your life to Jesus after "back sliding?" Or don't you ever sin anymore? That would mean you're a liar and the Truth is not in you, according to St. John.
Yes, I have backslidden and wrestled with difficulty in my faith several times. The direct implication in the Bible is that we will sin and wrestle with our faith, we will experience spiritual warfare. It is Christ's righteousness that we appeal to The Father with, not our own. We will persevere, if we are His.
Once Saved Always Saved is a lie...from the pit of hell, and quite presumptuous. It cheapens Grace that cost our Savior his life and every drop of blood.
It shows that the mercy of God is greater than the weakness of man. Man cannot thwart the almighty God, and if He means to grace you with spiritual life, He will, and you will have ears to hear, you will respond to your spiritual birth. Sure, you can supress it for a time, but you will come back to your new self, as you would not be happy being in the world, acting as your old self again. This is why we are to examine ourselves.
It doesn't cheapen grace, it shows how powerful it really is. What cheapens grace is saying that there is something you do in order to get it.
)Purgatory's where Protestants become Catholics. :)
Which is another way of saying the unbiblical and blasphemous- 'Jesus blood is not good enough to cover your sins, you have to work off the rest past your baptism.' Where is that idea in the Bible? I see this- "having BEEN justified we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1. Purgation means we do not have peace with God- he still holds us in contempt, our sins are not covered, we must pay, there is no peace, only enmity.
God bless
Hi Joyful Catholic
for part 2, comment two response-
Oh, and one more thing, what about the youth minister in our former "inter-denom" mega church who molested a teen age girl? His salvation is as secure as yours is, isnt' it? If he repents. But then why should he? I mean what for? He was "saved" Garret. Let's hear it for the good old "once saved always saved" doctrine. I mean, he prayed the "Sinners' Prayer," confessed w/ his mouth "Jesus as Lord" and asked Jesus into his heart, just like you told me to do. And with that, "Wham Bam!" -Poof- he was *saved!*
I don't take Romans 10:9 as a magical formula for salvation at all. Just because someone says a prayer does not mean they are saved, I never said that, the Bible doesn't teach it! We have to take the Bible as a whole to determine how it is that we are saved, and what that looks like.
According to you, I guess he doesn't have to 'repent,'
If you knew me, you wouldn't say I believe that for one hot minute. You don't know me. Again, the assumption is that I am antinomian. I very much believe in obedience to the word and morality, striving to become holy and pure, fighting against the flesh, and focusing on God, hating my sin. That is Biblical! You are describing someone who does not fight the flesh, is not striving for holiness, is not thinking that he has to honor God in anything other than mere profession. How did you get that impression from my post above? Did you actually read it and esp. my response about James!?
He doesn't ask anything of us He won't help us to do and attain, but we DO HAVE OUR PART to respond and comply WITH grace
And where does it say that doing that part and compliance with grace is what saves? Don't mistake the distinction being made between us here- both sides believe that we have a part to do, but Protestants are careful to say that the cooperation is not itself salvific. We say if you are saved, you are saved, and being saved you will do good works and strive for holiness- in fact it will be your good pleasure to do so! Committing regular and habitual sin will grieve you and not make you happy because you are, by the grace of God, a new person born from above. It is because you are saved that you do good works, not the good works that ensure you are saved (Ephesians 2:8-10). You are taking credit for what God has granted you to walk in, the fruit of the Spirit is a gift, not a work that you do to earn the gift.
God bless you too Joyful Catholic, and thanks for the prayers-
Garret
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